META: Character Bashing Gives Me Rage
Jun. 5th, 2010 10:23 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
campylobacterWednesday was a long day at work; I was finally at home, decompressing, reading some hot Daniel/Vala smut... and then after leaving a review, I got the notion to try something new: a Daniel/Sam story.
Because I don't 'ship Daniel & Sam, I wanted to gain insight into their relationship dynamic from another segment of the Stargate fandom. What is it about their interaction that I might be missing? Because when I see MS & AT in scenes together, their body language is the same as my body language around my brother. Have I been projecting my perceptions as an older sister onto Sam's character? I wanted to see if the Daniel/Sam fandom handily destroys the fanon of Sam & Daniel as "just like brother & sister".
And now I'm pissed: there's Vala-bashing in the Sam/Daniel story.
Hello? "True Vala fashion" would be for Vala to ask if she could join them in a threesome. Vala doesn't think of Sam as a "harlot"; in fact, she respects Sam's authority as a leader (see "The Uninvited") and spends time shopping and drinking with her ("Family Ties").
Why does an author need to bash a character for the sake of focusing on their fave OTP? WTF???!!!!
I don't bash Daniel/Sam in my stories, or any other pairing. In fact, as a multi-shipper, I toss in innuendo for other pairings (Jack/Daniel & Sam/Vala being a couple favorites) because it gives the characterizations more energy and dynamism, and acknowledges the depth of their previous history together.
Anyone have any Sam/Daniel fanfic recs that don't have character bashing? Maybe there should be warnings on 'shipper fics if there's character bashing... LOL. "Sam/Vala antipathy" or something. Because it ruined my evening.
Because I don't 'ship Daniel & Sam, I wanted to gain insight into their relationship dynamic from another segment of the Stargate fandom. What is it about their interaction that I might be missing? Because when I see MS & AT in scenes together, their body language is the same as my body language around my brother. Have I been projecting my perceptions as an older sister onto Sam's character? I wanted to see if the Daniel/Sam fandom handily destroys the fanon of Sam & Daniel as "just like brother & sister".
And now I'm pissed: there's Vala-bashing in the Sam/Daniel story.
Vala [....] could tell that something was up. It didn’t take her long to notice the furtive glances. The close proximity. Even the occasional drifting hand under the commissary tables. At first she was angry. This blonde harlot stole HER Daniel away. But as she watched them, she knew that Daniel was never really hers. And in true Vala fashion, she turned her sights to someone else.
Hello? "True Vala fashion" would be for Vala to ask if she could join them in a threesome. Vala doesn't think of Sam as a "harlot"; in fact, she respects Sam's authority as a leader (see "The Uninvited") and spends time shopping and drinking with her ("Family Ties").
Why does an author need to bash a character for the sake of focusing on their fave OTP? WTF???!!!!
I don't bash Daniel/Sam in my stories, or any other pairing. In fact, as a multi-shipper, I toss in innuendo for other pairings (Jack/Daniel & Sam/Vala being a couple favorites) because it gives the characterizations more energy and dynamism, and acknowledges the depth of their previous history together.
Anyone have any Sam/Daniel fanfic recs that don't have character bashing? Maybe there should be warnings on 'shipper fics if there's character bashing... LOL. "Sam/Vala antipathy" or something. Because it ruined my evening.
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 05:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:02 pm (UTC)Uh, Sam would NEVER leave Daniel in that situation; they ALWAYS back each other up. Plus, Sam's a better fighter than Daniel; that's CANON.
The author just wanted Daniel to get shot in the head so that Sam could visit him in a rehab facility to tell him that she was pregnant, and therefore increase the angst factor. That's when I stopped reading.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 05:51 pm (UTC)http://sg1-heliopolis.com/adult/viewstory.php?sid=985&warning=5
"fantasies" is it's title and I left a review of it because I liked it. Hope it smooths over your disgruntlement. I prefer you to alwasy be gruntled.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 08:03 pm (UTC)Thraesja knows her canon, and she knows all the characters, even Jack & Teal'c! Thanks so much for finding that jewel.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 08:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:23 pm (UTC)Funny how fanfic!fail and GateFail can inspire the plotbunnies...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:34 pm (UTC)There was so much fanwank in The XF, especially the Doggett-bashing in Mulder/Scully fic or Scully-bashing in Mulder/Krycek slash, that I restricted myself to select communities where wank wasn't allowed.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 06:58 pm (UTC)Character bashing is one of the main reasons why I avoid reading stories of pairings I don't agree with.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 07:14 pm (UTC)I think character bashing reflects directly on the author's lack of understanding the characters they're 'shipping. Even if a pairing is canon -- let's say Jack/Sara, for example, in a pre-SGC story -- and the author writes Sara as a silly, perky, vapid housewife instead of a chain-smoking, straightforward, car-repairing mom, then obviously, someone's not paying attention to the show!
Because I KNOW we've all read some Daniel/Vala where their characterizations are so OoC and WTF? that it looks like you could substitute Buffy/Xander or Luke/Chewbacca and it would make as much sense.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 07:41 pm (UTC)But I seriously do think some writers resort to character bashing to make their favorites look better, their pairings to work. YMMV.
Luke/Chewbacca
Okay...I want whatever you're
tsmoking!(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-05 08:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 12:00 am (UTC)http://surreallis.livejournal.com/318684.html
http://infanity.ficlaundering.com/moa/fic/sg_cityofbrotherlylove.html
These are three that were rec'd on the Archive's site. I don't think there is any bashing on these or I wouldn't have read them.
I wasn't a fan when that pic of Michael/Amanda came out but I heard some fans just about went ballistic when they saw it. I frankly think they look pretty hawt together, but that's just me.....
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 12:22 am (UTC)I was around when the pic came out, and as expected the fan response was loltastic. Amanda and Michael are delightfully evil. :D
As for character bashing, it does turn me off wanting to read fic containing it, and I worried when I wrote "Didn't Tell" that Sam's reaction might have been perceived that way instead of the misguided belief in a lack of trust on her part. But, I do think that if you need to resort to bashing other characters in order to enforce your pairing, then you need to have a good hard look at your characterisation.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 02:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 03:12 am (UTC)Evol = Love! :-D
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 03:19 am (UTC)But I've never known you to bash any character; even your icons celebrate each character's awesomeness, and the dizzying combination of pairings they provide.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 03:07 am (UTC)Amanda Tapping (http://pics.livejournal.com/campylobacter/tags/amanda+tapping/) is made of HOT, and Michael Shanks (http://pics.livejournal.com/campylobacter/tags/michael+shanks/)'s hotness melts my computer on a daily basis. If they'd been allowed onscreen chemistry, there'd probably be more Sam/Daniel 'shippers than Jack/Daniel and Jack/Sam 'shippers combined.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 01:49 am (UTC)But I was struck straight away by the protective "older sister" vibe from Sam when it comes to Daniel :)
I can definitely see where your own perceptions might have come from because I think that's how Amanda and Michael chose to play the characters :O
BTW, what's that picture from? (I'm only up to S7 in my catch-up, I don't recognize the episode?)
p.s. ship bashing = very very bad, shouldn't be done...ever!
There's a lot of ships I don't agree with but I would never ever think of bashing them, just because I don't love them, doesn't mean they don't get love from others :O
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 02:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 03:24 am (UTC)When I watched "Meridian" I was struck how AT & MS could've milked the sexual tension, but went with a deeper, more profound connection between the characters. They played nuances off each other with very little effort. It was truly beautiful.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 04:07 am (UTC)I never minded the Jack/Sam ship (probably because I was never Jack/Daniel shipper)
I seem to be more het than slash these days ;)
But as you say, I could never see past the big sister relationship between Sam and Daniel to see any potential there :)
I liked that he had a woman in his life who looked out for him, but didn't expect anything sexual from him
Oh god, Meridian kills me everytime I watch it (I watched it last night)
That episode is just stunningly beautiful in it's simplicity *sigh*
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 02:54 am (UTC)That said, I was a little more into Sam/Daniel when I first started watching the show, but began to step away the more what I was seeing on-screen didn't match what I was reading. The final straw for me was an author-who-shall-not-be-named who was writing a supposedly-gen fic in which ship kept creeping in at strange moments. There would be scenes I would stare at the screen and ask, "WTF would Daniel go to Sam to talk about this? Wouldn't he go to Jack, first?" And then Sam acts all sympathetic and understanding, at which point I begin shouting, "But Sam's as emotionally inept as *I* am! She would TOTALLY not know what to say here, whereas Jack would say something inappropriate that would nevertheless make him feel better anyway!"
So... yeah. The work of Thraesja and Amaranth Traces aside, I tend to find that most Daniel/Sam 'fic relies on bad characterization to make the pairing stick.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 03:29 am (UTC)Oh, poor Sam. She's so busy being a role model, astrophysicist, and kickass soldier that she neglects her own heart. ::huggles Sam::
BTW, I adore my brother & sister, if you need some data to start your research. ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 03:46 am (UTC)My long-time beta, Nyx Ro, claims she doesn't "see" the sibling thing, but admits she's not close to her siblings.
She once challenged me--and it's still in my WiP folder--to write a CONVINCING story in which Sam and Daniel were actually siblings--possibly even fraternal twins--and one, the other, or both had been adopted.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 04:02 am (UTC)I hate my plotbunny folder. It whimpers from procrastination.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 05:19 am (UTC)My bunny hutch is Very Angry with me at the moment for taking time out to feed an already over-fed brabbit that got its chance three years ago. I did let a kidfic bunny slip out last night, but it was only a double drabble.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-06 10:06 pm (UTC)I would rec if I could, but I don't read that pairing (largely because I personally find it unconvincing), so I'm afraid I can't help there. Much. [see below]*
I just wished to register my contempt for those who try to harsh other's OTP mellow and show no respect for the established qualities, both good and bad, of canon characters. I may have been squicked when I wandered into a Jennifer Hailey/Jack fic (it just seemed a little to close to pedophelia to me with that age difference), but that's what the "back" button is for. And if others enjoy it, why should I whine? And being pro-Hailey should not allow an author to assassinate Sam or Sara or anyone else!
*I think
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-09 07:31 pm (UTC)I'm trying to 'ship Jack/Sam, but it's hard for me b/c I pick up on the Jack/Daniel vibe much easier. (I'm up to early Season 2 in my SG-1 viewing, although I've seen S9&10 plus the movies.) I get the feeling that the scenes where RDA & AT let the sexual tension show are the ones left on the cutting room floor because of the USAF having some say in the TV production (although the Air Force must've been oblivious to the J/D ho yay under their noses.) They seemed to really try to push Sam as the "perfect" recruiting role model for women serving in the military.
When I saw the Remastered "Children of the Gods", I almost fell off my chair at the new footage of the briefing room scene between Jack & Sam. At the end of the briefing, they exchange a Look, one where there's challenge and defiance and a fight for dominance that is so scorching hot, it should've been allowed throughout Season 1. That, to me, is where their relationship dynamic got a bit shortchanged in post-production in the early seasons. It was too hot and complex for the writers and producers to deal with.
don't think remark is vala-bashing
Date: 2010-06-29 08:43 pm (UTC)and its ohmigosh do I look bad, should I wear something else, etc. etc. same thing about 'my opinion is right, yours is wrong'. Obviously that fic writer has interpreted what she sees differently. Harlot? Do you know what was in the writer's mind? I've seen women call each other bitch in private, then get over it and be best pals again. Ever wish someone would be hit by a truck for some minor thing? Now do you really mean it?
True Vala Fashion as portrayed in the show is to tease, but would she go above that to what is seen as a pretty egregious violation of workplace/ military ethics and start sleeping with someone? Fanfic writers ignore that reality all the time, So 'True Vala Fashion' is whatever the fic writer has seen fit to accentuate/ignore, etc. a bit in the eye of the beholder.
Re: don't think remark is vala-bashing
Date: 2010-06-29 10:15 pm (UTC)The story is titled "No Words" by Mouse (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4652924/1/No_Words_Series). I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-30 12:23 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-30 04:20 am (UTC)Did your main LJ account get deleted? Ack! Or are you moving to Dreamwidth? LOL Sorry, I know it must be a long story. Hope you get it all sorted out soon.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-30 04:25 am (UTC)My main LJ account, well, I can PM you if you really want to know.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-30 04:30 am (UTC)Feel free to PM me. Only if you have the time, of course. :-D
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-30 04:34 am (UTC)There isn't any fic in my LJ, so no worries there. Oh, and there are some things that never got uploaded to my badly-in-need-of-an-update site, and some of those are at AO3.
And while I have been lax with the updating, I couldn't delete my website if I wanted to -- I have work stuff on the same server.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 02:02 pm (UTC)ie - making him out to be some whiney wimpy annoying lets take the piss out of character. In the virtual episode thing they have going on there.
As much as I love a laugh.. I didnt there.
I left and went back to my home. the D/V thread instead and here at LJ.
Yeh, it makes me angry too when it's in fics. Vala never would slate Sam. period.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 04:11 pm (UTC)Plus, he and Cam have a relationship dynamic that's very fraternal: e.g. "The Fourth Horseman Part 2". Cam nicknames Daniel "Sunshine". OMG why bash Daniel for the sake of a Sam/Cam pairing? That makes no sense. Is it because Daniel's jealous of Sam taking away his new boyfriend? LOL
I was telling shakesperical that the only Stargate character that annoys me is Jonas Hanson from "The First Commandment", who is blessedly DEAD.
http://shakespherical.livejournal.com/28654.html?thread=97262#t97262
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 05:35 pm (UTC)I hope I didnt cause offense in the last post, it's just the way I saw it come across in that particular virtual episode. It's a pet peeve of mine. It was just they Made Daniel out to be too afraid to do stuff.
(I may have got my translation wrong, but I didnt mean wimpey in the physical sense but in the mental sense.. like wimping out on something for instance, hope that makes sense?
Used sense alot there eh? )
Which to me is not right. But I guess you are right, it was to make the Vala / Cam pairing more plausable?? pfft.
But hey, some excellent links here so will be busy tonight reading the recs!
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 09:22 pm (UTC)Yes, Daniel has flaws and Issues. But so do Vala, Teal'c, Sam, Jack, Cam! It's what makes them more real and wonderful and worth caring about. I'd probably hate them if they were perfect.
I could also justify a Vala/Cam pairing quite easily: Vala gets tired of Daniel's constant rejections, and Cam's there to console her. Easy peasy. No need to even break Daniel/Cam slash goggles, or shut the door on an eventual Daniel/Vala pairing.
I have so much fanfic reading & commenting to catch up on, it's daunting.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-06 12:41 pm (UTC)I could see Cam / Vala too, but I just choose not too ;)
Talking of Fanfic and how much you have to catch up on, at the mo I have lets see, 15 waiting to be read. What I do is have a dig around for the older fics and re read them. As well as the brand new ones.
I have a few hours each evening after my daughter goes to bed to catch up on stuff. but it doesn't include tv catch up too...
We need more hours in the day.
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